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 Post subject: Power Line Trails...
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:41 pm 
This probably doesn't apply to most in the city... But out in the country, where there are some great power line trails... It come up...

During Hunting season i am always seeing people back with there trucks in the power line trails... So this year, I have spent quite a bit of time up and down them out my way as they are the closest thing to off roading trails you can get... And boy do some of them get rough... There are places i don't go...

But is it legal? I don't recall seeing signs posted anywhere on them. There are obvious trails that they are used... So does anyone know of a law preventing me from doing this?

I just don't wanna invite a bunch of people out here to play, then get us all in trouble cause i didn't care to ask first... I don't wanna ask the town.. scared they may say no... lol

any help is appreciated... And if this is legel... i'm between buffalo and Rochester, so any of you come on out...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:51 pm 
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I think power lines are on private property owned by either the utility company or a private land owner.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:56 pm 
I would think they are owned by the utility companies then... I know several places where the power lines meet up to landowners property, yet they do not cut the area ner the trails...

With that being said... Is it safe to say that if there are no posted signs, and I haven't been asked to leave, and am not causing damage to anything... I'm probably safe?

thanks for the help... you guys are great...


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:21 am 
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Josh, for one or two people they probably don't care. But I highly doubt we could do a run on those trails.

One thing you can look into, if you like, is find out which company owns them and try and get written permission from them that we can use the trails.

Some clubs have done that.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:18 am 
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JoshuaTest wrote:
With that being said... Is it safe to say that if there are no posted signs, and I haven't been asked to leave, and am not causing damage to anything... I'm probably safe?


What do you mean by "safe"? That you won't get caught? There's more to worry about than getting caught.

Plain and simple...don't wheel there. If you don't see signs and are not sure if it's public land then don't wheel it. If you're serious about wheeling there, do as cornick mentions and get permission from the land owner.

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Last edited by zeeto on Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 1:30 pm 
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Most power lines are on private land. They take over use of the land and pay the landowner, eminant domain, but is remains the landowners property. I know this because two power lines run across my grandparents farm. The gates are installed by the power company and they give the landowner a key.

Don't go on powerlines without permission!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:19 pm 
1st off... Let me clarify to Zeeto...

No, I don't mean "safe" as in not getting caught... I am not a hoodlem trying to evade the authorities... I mean "safe" as in the term, safe to assume...

I live in a very rural area, and it is more than just common to see ATV/SnowMobiles out on trails or fields... I own property in a agracultural zoned are... Lots of people around me are farmers, or farm works.. Lots of which I do quite a bit of ATV riding with on these same power line trails, and other trails... I brought the subject up in an appropriate area to find out if anyone knew of any "fact" based lawes prohibiting the use of these trails. The trails I speak of are infact between sections of woods. There are no fences, gates, or signs restricting the use. Since i'm in an area where all winter these trails are used by Sleds to get back and forth between towns, and all summer they are used by ATV's and such for wheeling... and during hunting season, you see trucks on the all the time comming to and from hunting... Most fields, or trail entrances you see around here are clearly posted, the farmers and other land owners are very clear about where they do not want ATV's or Sleds... With that being said, i was asking was it safe to assume that there has been no attempt by land owners, or local government to prevent these trails from being used?

I was thinking it would be safe to assume that it is common knowledge that they are used for this reason. The trails are not hidden by any means... Infact rare that i've been through there without seeing atleast one registered ATV or so...

i probably used the wrong word when i said invite a bunch of people out... I've come accross 3 or 4 Xtrerra guys in my area on here.. And there is a possibility of inviting one or two guys at a time out, not a big run... Just one or two other vehicles to go out with, support when your stuck... lol

There are sections where the power line trails go through farms, and we are not on those sections, however there are parts where they go through the woods, and there are existing trails that are used almost on a daily basis. I have very much respect for land owners, and since i live accros the road from a major farm, I wouldn't dare purposely mess up farmed land.

I don't go around gates, to get to off road spots... I don't pass keep out, or no ATV signs to get to my off road spots... And I am very respectfull, as much as can be in a 4x4 to the land i use. All winter long I have snow mobiles crossing my property, and since i have no posted signs, and have not asked anybody to leave, I feel that it is "safe" to assume that they are not doing anything illegal by crossing my land.

So I am questioning the differance here?

Thanks


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:30 pm 
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I have a huge powerline in my backyard and it would be great to run those trails. I would love to get permission to run those. You could run from Niagara Falls to NYC on those lines. I have the key for the gates, it's the same line that runs across my grandparents land. Now to get permission to run 500 miles of trails.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:54 pm 
Now these power line's you speak of... They are gated right? Since you said you have a key, I assume some sort of fence or gate is there... That is where my main question lies... I don't have a gate through my property, and people cross it...

These trails i speak of, are in area's where there is no such gates, fences, and/or signs. The trails that exist there have been used so much, there is no question about them being there... Infact, I know people out my way with driveway's grown up more than the entrances to these trails...

I i crossed through your property, I would have to knowingly go around, or through this locked area. That locked area tells me the land owner does not want me there. I wouldn't dare go there.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:28 am 
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JoshuaTest wrote:
With that being said, i was asking was it safe to assume that there has been no attempt by land owners, or local government to prevent these trails from being used?

I was thinking it would be safe to assume that it is common knowledge that they are used for this reason. The trails are not hidden by any means... Infact rare that i've been through there without seeing atleast one registered ATV or so...


Do NOT assume anything. It does not need to be posted/gated/whatever for you to be trespassing.

Please don't wheel illegally ANYWHERE. If you aren't sure if it's legal....DON'T GO there.

It really should not be that hard to figure out where to get permission to run these trails. All it takes is one person screwing up for the owner/authorities to crack down on it...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:44 am 
As a property owner in rural area, this is the way i understand it...

A snowmobile crosses my land. There are no signs, fences, gates, locks, and i have never before spoken to this person in my life. If I call the sherrif, they will come out and ask the person to leave. If they return, or refuse to leave, they are subject to arrest!!! not before being informed not to be there. If i had a sign, he is subject to beging arrested right? If i had a gate, or anything to let him know not to be there.

My father was a repo man for years, And I myself was in that business for several years. And let me add, that in almost every state, unless you have a court order to obtain the vehicle, and a constable is with you, the local authorities do not have a legal ability to help you. They are simply there if called to keep the peace. So in lots of cases, they can actually ask you to leave without the vehicle you have legal right to take, because it would cause a distrubance. If i pull up to a house with a gate, or sign up stating to keep off. I can not legally enter the property to take the vehicle without such court ordres. However if there are no such signs, I can drive in, into the back yard if need, and take the vehicle. If i cause damage to the property, i can be held liable for it, but outside of me slamming on the gass and tearing the whole yard up, there is nothing illegal about it.

Repo guys aren't government employees... they have the same rights and protection that you and i do when we enter private property. So if this guy is not breaking the law by entering private property that is not posted, and a sled is not breaking the law by entering private property that is not posted, where exactly is the differance?

i understand that if i break something, I am liable, but seriously, all land is privately owned with the exception of goverment, and public owned property, which technically is still privately owned by them... My front yard is privately owned, but i can't have people arrested of comming to my front door... Is it because there is a driveway, and a walkway to the door? Well the entrances to some of these trails are smoother than my rural, gravel driveway to my house.. If they can assume if there is a driveway and walkway, they can come up to the door, I should be able to assume the same to the driveway to the power lines...

Now let me say that i do plan on reseraching the actual owners, and plan to find out if it is legal for me to be there, if i find out it is infact not legal, i will ask permission at that point.

but zeeto, as you have answered my question, you have made points that i just don't think are held up. I appreciate the input of some of you, especially refering me to getting permission... That was helpfull... But this is a forum, meant to be able to ask questions, and have people in the same interest to help you find answers... As for you... I never asked YOUR permission right? So please, before you go on... have an answer, or even some input...

Thank you


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:07 am 
New York State law has a exception in it...

"Trespassing is illegal even on unposted property, unless it is unimproved, apparently unused and unfenced (or not otherwise enclosed to exclude intruders.)"

This goes on to state that on if asked to leave by land owners, you are required to do so, and not return without permission... However the way the law is written the way it is, and as far as I can tell, this land is not only unimproved, but also unused and unfenced... The only exception i could see is the fact that the poles are in the ground... But since the trails run beside the power lines, the trails themselves are not improved...

If you want to google the Ny state Trespassing law, go for it... I would also google your own state if not in Ny state... If you read through the entire things... you should see that this is not illegal... while trespassing on private land that is unposted is, if the asumption is made that it qualifies as unused, and/or unimproved, and there are no signs, gates, fence, or you haven't been asked to leave... Until you are asked, you haven't broken the law.

I will still attempt to find out if permission can be gotten... But as for now, I will be wheeling... Aparently with the law on my side...

Thanks...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:09 am 
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The power companies do not own the majority of land the power lines run over, they have permission for use of that land however through easements (also known as Rights of Way) - (similar to eminent domain but no ownership changes hands - just the right of use). You shouldn't need permission from every land-owner that has a power line easement for that particular line. Permission from the power company should suffice, because they have the rights to the use of that land.

I do recall that for repo's you can enter private property as long as there is no fence or signage, I'm not sure if this is the same situation.

I do also know that some power line trails have been specifically designated as OHV or ATV areas/trails, but I'm not sure if that is true of any in this area.

This is from the NYS Dept of Environmental Conservation: "Rights-of-way, such as power lines and railroads that cross private property are NOT public lands, and trespassing on these areas without permission from the landowner is illegal."

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:12 am 
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JoshuaTest wrote:
this land is not only unimproved, but also unused and unfenced... The only exception i could see is the fact that the poles are in the ground... But since the trails run beside the power lines, the trails themselves are not improved...


The powerline easements are both "used" and "improved"

They are used by the utility compay for maintenance access, and they are "improved" by the presence of the poles/towers. A land improvement is considered any structure permanantly affixed to the land.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:29 am 
Anthony...

thank... good info...

Since this is such a common area for ATV's and Sleds, do you know what government body would be able to say what trails are recognized trails, and what ones aren't... in the winter they always have the snow sled street signs up everywhere out here... somebody i would think should have a list of what trails are included to be used.

I'll see what i can do from the Utility companies...


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